Walter Veith and His Dark Language Game
Monday, October 27, 2008 When the world turns on it’s axis in a darker direction, as it has of late, there appears a proportional increase in all things prophetic, be they right or wrong. In favour of such interest is the death and destruction that followed the neglected prophetic warnings of prophets and apostles in the past. For the Christian, the direct prophetic promises and warnings of Jesus in the gospels and the Apocalypse are also good reason to look for signs of his coming.
However, Jesus also warned of false prophets, of antichrist’s, of false teachers who with lying doctrines would try to lead others into the very darkness they hoped to escape. Some have done this intentionally, with malice and forethought, others, through neglect, wilful or not, of sound principles of interpretation. That is the subject of this post.
From the time of our early church fathers in Alexandria a common popular mistake was to apply a symbolic or allegorical interpretation to Bible passages that would distort their plainest meaning. Such practice played a part in creating what is commonly called the Dark Ages of human history. The idea that the author himself, by a study of his grammar and context, should tell us whether his words are to be taken literally or as some figure of speech was ignored or rejected. Imagining themselves free to impose mystical or symbolic meaning whenever it suited their personal and theological needs, they twisted the word of God into their own destruction. Not until the Protestant Reformation was there a marked, substantial change in Biblical exegesis.
Whether we are speaking of Scripture or any other type of text, when words can mean anything they come to mean nothing. To have meaning, we must have definition and definition requires limits. In language those limits are created by grammatical and syntactical rules for constructing and connecting thought to others. Though language allows great flexibility for self-expression, those who receive that expression are bound to interpret it according to the senders usage, not merely their own. When this is ignored or fails we sink by one degree or another into meaninglessness.
The conspiracy theorists, men such as Walter Veith do this frequently. Manipulating language rules, they misconstrue and misshape the original authors intended meaning. They will take what is clearly symbolic and point it to another symbol, instead of allowing the symbol, like all good signs, to point to a concrete reality. When this happens, everything becomes a ‘sign’ with no real content beyond itself. Reality becomes shrouded in mystical meanings that only our elite friends have the so-called courage and wisdom to decode for us. They develop private language rules that redefine the language “game” so they can be the “winners”. It really comes down to a power play. Paranoia rather than careful thought increases. You can taste it in the intolerant, vindictive anger you encounter should you challenge the rules of meaning that give them the illusion of power through “deep” knowledge.
Dr. Veith has a Ph.d in zoology, therefore, he could hardly plead ignorance regarding basic linguistic rules. What he could plead is ignorance in the application of these rules in his Biblical hermeneutics (hermeneutics: the art / science of interpreting language). So far, any such plea has been a silent one. In fact, his video’s present a man well beyond confident in his own ability to interpret the truth for others. There is a manifest pride in decoding the signs or symbols of the secret societies he sees everywhere. The Illuminati, Freemasons, Skull and Bones, or Jesuits cannot hide behind their secret handshakes or hidden, demonic symbols, not while men like Veith are vigilantly exposing them. Soon he will find the real Saddam Hussein instead of the body double hung in his place. Not long now, he will reveal exactly how President Bush and the CIA conspired to destroy the Twin Towers. Of course, we will not be surprised to hear how the Catholic church was behind it all.
One might be forgiven for wondering why Jesus didn’t do the same work with the many Jewish and Roman conspirators around him. Why did he wait until now, until these special interpreters of prophecy would do it for us two-thousand years later?
Perhaps it was because that in this work they also misrepresent the church Christ built while they publicly confess his worship. Because he is an ordained Adventist minister, Walter Veith’s teaching is accepted by those outside our church as representing what we believe. As regards his work on Bible prophecy, nothing could be further from the truth. Should you go to his website and it’s online bookstore, you would not find any volumes of mainstream Adventist teaching on the subject, nor did I see links to those works. That’s understandable on a non-Adventist site or from another denomination, but from one of its own ministers who is an “expert” in Bible prophecy? Instead, you will find a selection restricted to the fringe of Biblical interpretation.
As I’ve also seen first hand, Veith and his companions frequently insinuate doubt about the integrity of church pastors, administrators, and members who hold to sound faith and practice. They imply a ‘remnant within the remnant’ teaching, the existence of a purer strain who alone have the favour of God. Yes, the Bible speaks of a remnant, but not one that lives and moves and has its being in its self-righteous contempt for others. How I would love to hear these souls speak of their own sins with the same fervour they denounce others!
But in a sense, all of this is good. For when the disciples of Veith and men like him react in that spirit, it clearly reveals the teaching for what it is. As Jesus said, a good tree cannot bear bad fruit nor a bad true good fruit.
Some suggest Veith’s popularity (some YouTube videos are getting over 50,000 views) is good because it at least creates an interest in prophecy. Well, by that reasoning the devil himself is doing God’s work, for he too takes a strong interest in things to come. I cannot accept that deception ever serves more than its own wilful purpose.
Of course God can graciously use a false work toward its own demise, but that will not save those who were trapped in its snare. I believe the vacuity of their work will sooner or later become apparent, at least to the careful Bible student. But sadly, too many fearful souls are carried away with their excess and finally lost in the darkness they so desperately feared in the first place.
If you wonder, as I do about such things and do not want to be deceived on any Bible truth, I hope you take the time to understand sound principles for interpreting the Scriptures and not depend on someone else, no matter how much you like or admire them.
A way that will take time and test your commitment is to study the teachings of Jesus for yourself. Study how he understood the Scripture of his day, the Old Testament. You can also read the apostles in the same way. The Old Testament itself reveals principles for how it should be read. How did they use Scripture? Did they attach hidden, mystical meanings to clearly literal terms or events? Did they twist the author’s meaning in such a way that he could not recognise his own meaning? What do you see? Are you looking for yourself?
Considering who we Christians believe Jesus to be, the Son of God, then I would suggest his methods of interpreting the same word he first gave his people would be the safest course. Let’s not be fooled again.
[Edit: 10.12.08: See other posts on Veith]
- Why I Won’t Watch Walter Veith Videos
- Walter Veith: Is it a sin to argue against him
- Walter Veith: Conspiracy Theorist Persona Non Grata
Jan McKenzie
The above comments do not refer to Veith’s work on creationist issues or health. I am not familiar with his work on these subjects, however, given the nature of his mistaken conjectures, speculations and his fallacious reasoning in theology, I’m sorry to say he has poisoned that well for me. I would have to look elsewhere for sound arguments on these subjects. I have no doubt he made a few good points, but I haven’t the time to sift through more rubbish when better things are at hand.
Jan McKenzie
It was noted by, Odessa, one of the commenters on this post, that the Seventh-day Adventist church does not subscribe to the New World Order conspiracy theory (Wikipedia). The link from Wikipedia was suggested to her by an Adventist theologian as an overview of the subject. In doing so he affirmed her conviction that we as a church do not teach or commend such theories.
Reader Comments (49)
Excellent writing- thank you for taking the time to invest in the interest of helping others seek and know the Truth. Where do you find the time?
I'm certain I speak for many- your efforts are never futile!
Thanks for the supportive words, Sven. Your gift for encouragement is generous and strong.
You have time aplenty for all this - but do honestly confess you wilfully close your ears eyes and mind , refusing to know anything about the heaven - sent seminars of that ministry .
If you actually read carefully your own words about it , you might see how wrong you are .
I do not think you ought to be ordained in January if you have not realised yet that you do not know what you are talking about when it comes to Dr Veith . Example : You stubbornly refuse to even listen to his health or creation seminars , which all others laud and you do admit must be praiseworthy . That conclusively proves the case .
Utter stubborn wilful ignorance and bitter personal dislike and much else , totally unworthy of someone who expects to be ordained .
@hello,
I continue to submit my opinions and efforts to God's Word in the best way I know. I have no doubt I have made mistakes; anyone familiar with me and my work know that and they also know I do my best to be open to repentance and change.
When you or anyone else convinces me from Scripture that conspiracy theories are the heaven sent message of God for this or any other time, then I'll gladly confess my mistake. In the light of Scripture, I'll leave the judgment of my work to God. And I trust he will do the same for you.
To be honest to you personally, I find your spirit to be unbecoming a person takes the name Christian. You are making great, unreasonable assumptions about me and my ministry, based on the fact that I exercise my God-given right to disagree with someone's interpretation of Scripture.
As Jesus said, each of us will be judged with the same judgment we have pronounced on others. If you have read my writing carefully, you know I have not attacked Dr. Veith's personal relation with God. The first post was harsh in tone and I said so with a later edit at the opening of that post. I continue to find his presentation disgusting. But I have never meant to say he was not a Christian. I have no way of knowing such a thing based on what I have seen. However, that does not keep me from saying he is very, very wrong in presenting conspiracy theories as "present truth".
Why do you continue to use the term " Conspiracy theory " ?
By the way , not many years ago the word ' conspiracy ' was used without the predication ' theory '.
Do you not realise that habit is a result of conditioning due to contemporary fashion in media etc ?
I appreciate that you made a response to my previous post anyway .
Really you have never truthfully watched or listened to any complete seminar .
Ask yourself why that is .
Might you then change your opinion ?
Scripture , and for example GC also , tell us that there is indeed a conspiracy .
Did not satan and his cohorts conspire , and do .?
Is not the whole revolt against Heaven's government as Ellen White explained , that which amonuts to conspiracy ?
On November 5th , Guy Fawkes Day , is not foiling of a Plot commemorated which was to destroy the Protestant Parliament of King James VI of Scotland , I of England , the man who not only ordered our Bible to be complied but chose Great Britain as the name of the new nation ?
Plot is simply another word for conspiracy . ?
I paraphrase the 400 year old rhyme :
Remember remember the fifth of November ,
Comspiracy , Treason and Plot ,
I know of no reason why Conspiracy and Treason should ever be forgot .
Please just watch and listen to one of those seminars , will you ?
@Hello
From the video's I have seen, Dr. Veith believes and teaches that all the major political leaders are being controlled by the work of secret societies. By definition, this is a conspiracy theory. The word "theory" is used in this context because, like others, Dr. Veith offers assertion and speculation as the "evidence".
He makes very serious, inflammatory insinuations about the character and motives of these public figures without producing any real evidence. If you look, as others have, at the sources he references as "proof", they are often questionable, at times merely pointing to statements or assertions made by other theorist.
Numerous Adventist scholars, administrators, and pastors have found these methods and his preoccupation with secret societies to be a inconsistent with sound research, rules of evidence, and the example of Christ.
The Trans European Division and the British Union have serious questions about Dr. Veith's work. Neither are accepting service request for him to speak in their areas. Now, if you think these leaders are part of some evil plot against Dr. Veith, then I would suggest such an opinion of he Seventh-day Adventist Church would make it impossible for a person to continue as a member.
I agree, there is a conspiracy of evil that is fully exposed in Scripture for what it is. I also agree that secret societies exist and that we should not belong to such groups as a matter of principle.
However, such groups existed in the time of Christ and the apostles, yet we find no example from them of dealing in Dr. Veith's way. A preoccupation with secret handshakes, signs, and the such is sidetracking men and women from sound Bible study.
Theories abound about the death of Kennedy, the World Trade Centres, the current Economic Crises, and a wide number of other events. Whether or not the CIA and George Bush conspired to bring about the events of 9/11 is not the business of the gospel minister. Whether or not men like George Soros are secretly controlling the world is not my business.
I deal with sin in the hearts of men and women everyday. I help those who are most concerned with the evil that comes from within, not from without. I find it very interesting that those who are so concerned about the sins of others find little time to speak of their own, of their own terrible conspiracies of the heart, hatched like viper eggs in the den, designed to manipulate others into giving them what they lust after.
Dr. Veith also uses poor principles of interpretation in trying to use the book of Revelation to support his claims against the Papacy.
His teaching that the KJV is the best version of Scripture has been publicly refuted and rejected by the Biblical Research Institute of the Adventist Church.
The consistent fruit of his ministry in local churches has been seen in members taking extreme views, being critical of those who do not accept them, and generally causing a divisive spirit.
Dr. Veith has privately made extreme statements in ministerial meetings, things said in front of pastors and administrators that they found incredible and unfounded. Not everything of this nature can be made public, but it is something shared among pastors themselves.
I'm sorry if you think so little of our judgment that you won't do the same thing you ask of us, that is, to carefully reconsider that theories, speculations, and accusations do not constitute proof, that this is not the work of a man or women called to uplift the merits of Christ to a world dying in it's sin.
And even if it is proven that the Freemasons or Jesuits or the Skull and Bones societies are in fact controlling the world, I would continue preaching the gospel of Christ and him crucified as our only hope for now and the days to come.
I have spent years studying the methods of Jesus in bringing us salvation and I see nothing in his work that resembles or speaks of speculations on conspiracy theories. This is not the solution to the sin problem for humanity.
You mention the writings of Ellen White. I would challenge you to find anything is such books as Gospel Workers, Evangelism, Desire of Ages, Christ's Object Lessons, or Ministry of Healing that supports these sensational speculations. I have read these books repeatedly over the years and continue to do so. When I think of the methods Jesus used and when I think of the character of his work in sacrificing himself for our sins, I have no inclination to waste my time with what is trivial by comparison.
Do you really believe Jesus Christ has called me, a gospel minister, to argue about whether or not Saddam Hussien had a body double? Dr. Veith certainly does that, among many other things I consider foolishness.
I hope you'll think of these things and reconsider just what the work of ministry is and what it means, in the Biblical sense, to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Example : It is you , not I who talk about " Now, if you think these leaders are part of some evil plot against Dr. Veith, "
First , I point out those are your words.
Do not place words in my mouth please .
Now I will not correct many other false premises you assert which are all of like nature .
You seem to multiply or increase the number of such sidetracks , I term them as ,
The truth is , you have never watched and listened to any seminar , or you would admit facts are presented .
The Seventh Day Adventist church was founded with the firm assertion that a " Great Controversy " exists , that means a " Great Conspiracy " also must so be .
Most of GC deals with conspiracy , plot , intrigue .
Those who cannot see the signiificance of Dr Veith's presentation and exposure of facts are mistaken .
7Th Day Adventism is distinct .
The church is called to expose these facts .
Ellen White correctly foretold there would be some within the church in the final days who would even be the most efficient witnesses against those who held to the truth .
Some who would switch sides .
Before you once again try to misconstrue and place words in my mouth , as is your wont , know and inderstand please that I mention this only as example of what is possible , and will be .
Do not please interpret this as another statement about present leaders or such .
I give the example to illustrate .
If I have to tell you each time to not misconstrue it becomes tedious .
Is that what you wish ? To wear out those who try to make it clear to you you need to watch , listen and then form opinion , by twisting words , and expecting others to restate what thay said and correct what it was you said thay said !
Maybe you had a job which involved such tactics and acquired the habit , possibly ., I don't know .
There could be a number of causes ,
Why do you stubbornly refuse to open ears and hear a seminar ?
It would be normal to do so before you pontificate on them based upon hearsay by no matter who else .
Hearsay is hearsay , no matter who in 7th Day or even the pope himself speaks , it is hearsay .
If some think so badly , let them have Dr Veith no longer as ordained minister , and shall we have you on January 10th ?
I know what the result will be , and some of it has already happened .
How can you persaude those of us who have heard listened and watched ?
How, when you have not ?
You are honest to have admitted you have not .
Such things I acknowledge and respect .
You are missing out on a wealth of factual educational material and positive benefits , and that applies to anyone else , nomatter how high they imagine they are placed in the church .
Let reason prevail . Aquaint yourself with the seminars .
At least one . A fair hearing before verdict .
Those in the church are not infallible no matter who .
President ot Pope 's opinions do not count for me if they tell me to believe otherwise than my own conscience and the facts .
Ordained ministers of 7Th Day are not merely called to be ' gospel ministres ' , there are plenty of churche for those .
Uniquely 7Th Day is concerned with alerting to know that this time since 1844 is the end game , and in GC , Ellen White clearly foretells , as does Revelation too , about the deception .
You tell us Deception is not Conspiracy ?
You disagree with Ellen White and scripture , that there is no conspiracy possible , when the whole world is deceived ?
You confine yourself to " sin from within " , whilst Ellen White and scripture tell us there is a ' man of sin ' and not within but without will he deceive ?
You advocate not being watchful ?
You tell us it is all far away in the future ?
You are an authority on this ?
You have no need to watch or listen to know what is in seminars ?
The books on health and creationism are not worthy to be called books , if written by Dr Veith?
Has The Vatican also placed it's official stamp of disapproval on them ?
You concur with so many principles of The Vatican ?
High positioned can tell us what we can believe ?
Extraordinary !
All truly fascinating , that an aspirant minister holds all such ideas .
Yet , I know you are really a decent chap , honest , yet just somehow prevented from knowing .
Have the British Conference made it policy now to not ordain those who do not tow the line ?
Are they reluctant to use terms such as ' heretic ' when it applies to such as Dr Veith , in case that appears too Cafflic ?
@hello
I'm not sure why you are saying I haven't watched any of Veith's seminars. It is true I have not watched much, but I did view enough to be convinced that he is a conventional conspiracy theorist. I am speaking of his Total Onslaught videos. Other pastors who have seen and heard more his presentations have agreed with my assessment.
(See my link to Pastor BIll Cork using his name in the search box).
It was not my intention to put words in your mouth or misrepresent your position. I apologize if that's the way it seemed. I was simply trying to draw out what are obvious implications if you continue to hold the position you do.
I see little hope of us agreeing on this point. And I am sorry you think that disagreeing with Dr. Veith should disqualify me from the ministry. But I'll leave such judgment with God. Time will also tell how the Seventh-day Adventist church decides to respond to Dr. Veith's growing public misrepresentations of our faith.
I wish you well in Christ and thanks for your time.
For someone who has a lot to say about a person (Walter Veith), you have seen very little of his videos.
You don't have enough time to see them but you are ready to speak badly of him on the internet.
He would never speak badly of you because it is not right to do so of people of God. He has said so himself.
I do not think you are fair to him.
As for what he represents - "By their fruits ye shall knoa them" I have given the series to a lady at work that I work with. They are oly 2/3s of the way through the Onslaught series and are already keeping the Sabbath. Not a day goes by where she does not thank me for "opening her eyes." This is only one example. Dr. Vieth is doing a wonderful work in South Africa. SImply talk to the President of the South African Union: Francois Louw (yes an administrator).
Regarding his "conspiracy theories" . The Devil owns this earth and wants control of all of it. Wouldn't it be a little naive to think that he wouldn't emply every available means to enslave us? The Bible says to come out of Babylon. If we don't know what that is, aren't we in trouble. Doens't the Bible say to expose deception? The truth is what it is. If what Dr. Veith is saying is wrong that you have everyright to speak badly of him for what his language is is truely dark! However, if what he is saying is true, then every living person on this planet needs to hear what he has to say - and speaking badly of that is preventing a servent of God from doing His work. I hope you can live with that real possibility. Why don't you let God decide.
Roger,
You ask, "Doesn't the Bible say to expose deception?" I thought that was what I was doing.
Tell me Roger, why do you think a message about Saddam Hussein supposedly having a body double and other such messages, is the "truth"? Veith's claims are not only unsupported in his videos, they are pointless besides. I could care less, if it were even true, how many "body doubles" a dictator had. What is the chaff to the wheat, Roger?
It is a mystery to me why souls like yourself find this kind of rubbish so enlightening and spiritually uplifting. I am speaking out because it is just what you say, a deception. I have seldom seen less relevant truth in a presentation than what "Dr." Veith offers.
The Total Onslaught series is more of a total absurdity. Veith goes on and on and on about secret societies and the supposed control they have over world leaders. I have nothing Biblical in these theories. How you can say this is the work of a gospel minister is beyond me. I causes me to wonder about who you think Christ is and what he is doing now.
I'm the more sorry that, if it is as you say, a church leader of any standing would see value in Veith's work. He is not uplifting Christ, but turning the attention of people like yourself into dark, meaningless paths.
As you ask me, I sincerely hope you'll rethink the gospel, read more of Christ work, and ask yourself if Veith is really preaching the "truth".
I am fully convinced that this is not the character of God's work and is is discrediting the Seventh-day Adventist church.
I think you will soon see that many of those who are supporting this work will lose their faith entirely.
Roger,
Some added thoughts.
I see from Dr. Veith's website and the articles he has published there, that though he says some true things in regard to Bible prophecy, from what I surveyed, his messages have no gospel centre. The sacrifice of Christ in relation to the plan of salvation is missing from his messages on prophecy. He seems not to read or preach Scripture in the light of Christ atonement for our sins.He may do this in other places, but not in those I saw.
Nor have I found on his website written work that compares with the conspiracy theories that dominate some of his videos. I find that a curious omission. Should it mean a change in direction, I hope Dr. Veith makes that clear.
Such a fault is not with Veith alone. There is much dry, dead preaching in the world today, some for money, some out of pride, some for the love of influence. Christ and his humiliating sacrifice find precious little room in many preachers remarks. And when they do, it is difficult to find the cross at the heart of their theology. This is, of course, a generalization based on my personal experience and should be taken as such.
I have little interest in messages where Christ crucified is not the centre and avoid Christ-less sermons whenever I can.
My blog archives will give an account of my theology, particularly the category, "Theology of the Cross".
You make all your claims about Mr Veith without even watching his presentions . So are you basing your opinions on hearsay . If you read your Bible , have you ever asked yourself why dozens of verses are missing . Read the King James Version and then you make up own mind .
Pete, I have already answered the questions you raise in other posts and replies to reader's comments. My most comprehensive post on Veith, which includes links to others can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/6palxh
I'm not allowed to add a comment to the entry by Odessa, so I would like to post it here. This is the link for that post.
Dear Odessa,
I'm really sorry to see you writing this. I haven't met you in person but I have worked a little with you through the internet through the years that you worked with Amazing Discoveries. I only started in the spring of 2007 but some of the things you say are far fetched. Yes, there are problems but are you, or anyone else, perfect? I do not want and will not go into character assassination like you have done for Walter and Amazing Discoveries. That I leave with the Lord to judge.
You said that "What they are promoting is not in harmony with our Church’s mission." What is the Church's mission? I'll touch on it below, but you might want to read at leas the first chapter of Evangelism for a fresh review.
When I came to Amazing Discoveries I was a hardcore legalist as well; yet, here I have found the Lord Jesus Christ to be my personal Saviour and He has done so wonderful things in my life. I have come to learn that my only duty is to abide/remain in Him and let Him do the pruning, protecting and changing in me (John 15). Have you learned that yet, because 80% of Adventists still have no clue about it? Have you learned what true righteousness by faith is? Most Adventists rejected it even in Ellen White's times, and I'm not surprised that they do it now as well. I have been baptized as an Adventist in 2006. It is funny that only Adventists strive so hard against this message for those on the outside are starving for this message.
Regarding the exposing of "conspiracy theories" that we at Amazing Discoveries are exposing I know that it's futile to argue with you or with anyone who is of the opposite opinion. I would just forward you to the three angels' messages and see that it is a requirement to expose the works of the papacy and the devil.
As for you brother McKenzie, who stand as if protecting the church from heresy and great danger, I would like to thank you for your opposition. Without opposition I would definitely think that there is something wrong. But "When the message of God meets with opposition, He gives it additional force, that it may exert greater influence. Endowed with divine energy, it will cut its way through the strongest barriers, and triumph over every obstacle." Acts of the Apostles, pg 601. The more people oppose this message the more I have seen God adding power to it; the more I have seen this message encompassing the world.
I am grateful to God that I am part of this ministry. Although there are problems, as there are everywhere especially in each one of us, God is bringing multitudes to the light of the truth and setting them free from the bondage of sin. So while others will oppose this message and speak all kinds of things against it, we will go forward giving the message of God as we have been instructed. Like Nehemiah we don't have time to stop and read these kinds of attacks or try to fight them for we have a great mission: to arouse men "to realize the solemnity of the time, the nearness of the day when human probation shall be ended." Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 16
May God bless you all and may His Spirit shine in all your hearts. May His desires be fulfilled in His people that our Lord may come and take us home.
With brotherly love,
Iasmin
The whole story of the Great Controversy between Satan and Jesus Christ amounts to what should be viewed and considered as a great "conspiracy theory."
"The whole story of the Great Controversy between Satan and Jesus Christ amounts to what should be viewed and considered as a great "conspiracy theory." David
I would strongly disagree, David. There is nothing theoretical or speculative about the Biblical account of the conflict between Satan and Christ. Inspired writers do not deal in "theories". This is the vital distinction Dr. Veith is missing. Yes, there is a conspiracy of evil in the world and that should be exposed, but it should be done with the truths of Scripture and the gospel of Christ, not with idle, silly stories about secret meetings and body doubles.
To be sure, some of what Dr. Veith says is true, but his preaching is mixed with enough foolishness to undermine his message and his authority as a gospel minister.
My dad was a high level Mason, as a teen I watched him perform a ritual in a circle with a pentagram wearing the abron with the eye of Isis on it and holding a knife. After seeing this I searched out as much as I could on Masons and associated groups. When I revealed to him my research his only word to me was be careful who you talk to. Please don't be naive, Dr. Veith is absolutely correct. You can search these thing out yourself...things are so far progressed these things are no longer hidden as they once were. It is not gloom and doom that he brings to you in his message, it is hope. That you wake like the 10 virgins and have oil for your lamps and enter in the wedding feast properly clothed. Do not reject the light God is giving you now. He loves you wishes you not to be lost for a lack of knowlege. 1Thess 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
It doesn't matter if the rest of the Christian world does not embrace you. So, the truth is turned on its head and you are called conspiracists, even God uses this word (Jer.11) Jesus exposed the priest and pharisees as they conspired against his life. It is not pleasant work. It takes great courage, courage and faith you should build for the coming crisis. Dr. Veith means you no harm. If you don't buy his documentation at least check it out. It's not difficult all the verification is there. Remember, Jesus said You will be persecuted for Christ Jesus sake. Don't fall away when there is persecution for the truth's sake. If you are popular good chance something is wrong. The World has enmity toward God. So will it have enimity toward you if you are telling the truth of the gospel. The truth is not always pleasant sayings. Jeremiah, Isaiah, John the Baptist all had hard words for God's people. I plead with you do not reject this light. Ask the Lord to give you more. Seek for yourselves and you will see. Deceptions by their nature means they do deceive...even the very elect. Being deceived is not your fault initially but staying so after light is given may be judged so by God. At least look up and be saved. Look! Your salvation draweth nigh
Instead Praise God that he loves you enough to prepare you for the great deception. And prepare you for anti Christ disception by revealing how the mysteries of iniquity have progressed. The time is at hand for a prepared strong people. Gloom and doom, not for those who look and say he has come for us. The blessed Savior is showing us the details of Babylon so we will come out of it and its idoltry. Give us the urgency of love that cries out to all we love in mankind. I beg you to reconsider. I beg you. Remember all the virgins were asleep the prepared and the neglectful. The wheat and tares grow side by side. You have tares in your church....it is the job of the angels to reap this harvest. All churches have wheat, all have tares. God is calling us out from the our corupted philosophies and institutions. He is saving us....He will try us in fire because we will be tested whether we be gold or base metal. Open you hearts, the Holy Spirit can only convince you of this. Hearten not your hearts. So as in the days of Noah so shall it be in the days of the Son of man. Go into the ark, the arc of the covenant. Few be that find it. Run not with the crowd, narrow is the way. It is an unpopular way. There is a great conspiracy, great controversy for your souls. It is not run by man but man in conspiracy with the dragon, Satan, Lucifer...This stuff is real...God says it is in his word. Read Jeremiah, Isaiah, Christs experience with demons.
The children of Isreal struggled with idoltry, we ask, how could they have. Look to God an he will show you your idoltry. Hold not on to your own opinions to the cost of your soul.
Ellen White has been discredited by the infiltration of the Jesuits in your midst but she also warns:
In the revelation of His righteous judgments, God will break up all these associations; and when the judgment shall sit and the books be opened, there will be revealed the un-Christlikeness of the whole confederacy. Those who choose to unite with these secret societies are paying homage to idols as senseless and as powerless to bless and save the soul as are the gods of the Hindus. {2SM 131.2}
These societies offer some advantages which from a human point of view appear like great blessings, but not so when judged by the Lord's measurement. Behind their apparent advantages are concealed satanic agencies....They are Satan's traps, his net to entangle souls. {2SM 131.3}
Matthew 24:43
But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.
Matthew 25: 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. F48 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Revelation3: 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Jeremiah 11:
8 Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do; but they did them not. 9 And the LORD said unto me, A conspiracy is found among the men of Judah, and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 10 They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places
Revelation 9:21
21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Christine, I'm sorry but you've completely missed the point. I can see you haven't bothered to read my post addressing these issues, so there would be no reason to go over it again here. I'll suffice to say I don't see anything in the preaching or teaching of Jesus that resembles the conspiracy preaching of Dr. Veith.
Walter Veith paints the full picture of the way the ends of the earth are coming upon us. The deadly wound has really been healed, and everyone needs to know this. He also talks of the love of Jesus and his deep faith, Ellen White's ministry, and he encourages people in a way that is the opposite of what you have written - you think if people don't agree with you they shouldn't be in the church. Jesus was trying to get people in, not kick them out. You have to watch the whole series. Just as some things stand alone, others take longer to present. You have run without the full story, and trusted the judgment of others, in your condemnation of your brother in Christ. Your whole blog is about you. Have you noticed? Od whom do you love to speak? Yourself. "I" is all over the place, but where is "He"?
Lulubelle....As I've said before, Dr. Veith distorts the picture of end-time events by mixing conspiracy theories with Bible prophecy. The two are not the same, contrary to what you or Dr. Veith may believe. You will find no example of Jesus indulging theories about secret conspiracies even though there were conspiracies to kill him from his birth. He does not waste our time with long lectures about how world leaders supposedly have secret handshakes and secret symbols. There is nothing in the gospels to feed the paranoid fears of unbalanced minds. Jesus does not sensationalize evil but magnifies the truth about God. The evil he does expose has much more to do with the everyday sins of human beings, those not hidden but readily seen by other people. Our great sins of pride and self-righteousness far exceed the evil of any secret society. While we should say there is no place for secret schemes designed to protect ourselves or hurt others, we have no business as Christians indulging fantasies about evil that only feed our pride.
Just commenting here as the more recent posts on Dr. Veith are closed:
I came across your site while checking on Dr. Veith's background. I was just recently introduced to his videos, and I've seen several of his creation/health videos, and 2 of his conspiracy type videos from the total onslaught series (Secret Behind Secret Societies and Islamic Connection). I always subscribe to the practice of "believing half of what you hear", keeping an honest objective eye on things. His science videos are solid to me, and I appreciate his work in this field, discrediting evolution. And the two videos on secret societies help reveal what goes on in the background. I don't know if they're all 100% true, but those two videos are basically him showing pictures he took of various Catholic, Islamic cathedrals, Masonic temples and showing the various hidden symbols, and connecting it with various symbols used by past civilizations who worship the Sun (Egyptian, Babylonian, Mithraism). I don't think you can make that stuff up, unless he's good at photoshop. I drive by a Masonic temple on the way to work, and I now "see" the symbols that were once hidden to me. I always wondered why Anglo-Saxon Shriners wore Islamic hats, and his videos explained why, it makes perfect sense, so I can't say he's totally nuts on that subject.
As far as the other videos I can't speak on that, but objectively speaking, I think there is merit to his scientific based videos, and the two occult expose videos seem credible enough. If you can stomach it, try watching the two videos I mentioned and maybe you won't think he's totally off. God Bless.
Thanks for the input, Glenn. I'll concede Dr. Veith brings forward some relevant truths from time to time. However, he does mix that truth with false interpretations of Scripture, particularly Bible prophecy. His conspiracy theories are often out of harmony with the emphasis of Scripture on how the controversy between Christ and Satan is playing out. His fascination with symbols in everyday life is not shared by Scripture. He would make it seem so because the prophets use symbols, however, there is no direction in Scripture to suggest we should be looking for all these secrets signs and symbols in daily life. It is a misdirection that leads us away from more important practical matters of witness, worship, and service.
I agree, as I've said before, that for what seem obvious reasons to me, Christians should not belong to secret societies such as the Free Masons. Yet Dr. Veith works in a way that unnecessarily alienates and divides us from those we should be trying to help. I can't see his methods as being in harmony with the methods of Christ.
Jan
Reading through this blog and all the others regarding Walter Veith you have made the following statement in your previous post and similar comments in others: "he [Walter Veith] does mix truth with false interpretations of Scripture, particularly Bible prophecy" - whould you please reference this statement of yours? It seems that you have watched only a limited amount of his dvd's, and since this is a serious allegation you make would you please elaborate?
Furthermore, in the spirit of honesty and truth i need to state the following:
Through watching the (complete) Total Onslaught DVD Seminar about 4 years ago - Jesus Christ saved me from a life of godlessness pleasure and pride. I am now a baptized member of the SDA Church, the youth leader in our church and i currenly run a dvd-evangelistic-ministry, the "seeds" that were sown by watching the Total Onslaught DVD's produced such "fruits" in my life. Through your general tone it seems that you are falsely accusing my good conversion in Christ? Be not deceived Pastor, evil communications corrupts good manners.
Christo, I can remember a very specific instance in his comments on Revelation 17.4, in which he uses a vatican coin with the picture of a golden cup on it as evidence to identify the woman on the beast with a golden cup in her hand. That is a very basic misapplication of Scripture. Bible symbols are not interpreted by other symbols in the modern world, but by other Scriptures. If that were the case we would also be looking for red dragons, seven headed beast, and so on.
But, as you know, my primary objections with Dr. Veith has to do with the way he offers political conspiracy theories as being the fulfillment of prophecy. Such teaching, along with his mistaken views on Bible translations, are openly contrary to Seventh-day Adventist understandings of the Bible. Dr. Veith does not represent a balanced view of Scripture. It is for this very reason he is not permitted to speak in so many of our churches world-wide.
Dr. Veith does not represent the Seventh-day Adventist understanding of Bible Prophecy, certainly not in the spirit of the gospel, not with his unproven constructions of speculative conspiracy theories. His preoccupation political figures is not the focus of Scripture. His ministry is largely one of attacking Catholics rather than proclaiming the gospel of Christ. He continually and repeatedly makes unproven accustations against those who are not present to defend themselves. Much of what he says amounts to slandering the character of public figures. You'll find nothing like this preaching in the life of Jesus or the apostles. His work unnecessarily alienates those whom we should be trying to win to the love of Christ. I consider the spirit of his work to be that of false teaching, though he may preach truth from time to time. As a pastor, I'm instructed by Scripture to warn believers of false teaching. That is what I've tried to do.
Christo, I'm sorry you take this warning as a personal attack on your faith, but perhaps you need to also examine yourself, to see if indeed, the faith you've accepted is what you imagine it to be. If Dr. Veith represents your current faith and practice then I would counsel you to put down the DVD's and pick up the Scriptures. The Bible neither teaches or supports conspiracy theories. Those who say it does are distorting the Scripture for personal advantage.
Such an attack on the word of God will, as you say, be seen by it's fruit. The fruit of division and a critical spirit have entered any church I've known that had Veith disciples in it. Those converted to his ministry often come in with the same spirit of attack and self-righteousness so prevalent in the videos. They consider themselves holier than other members, more enlightened, more informed about the supposed conspiracies they've learned from Dr. Veith.
I'll close by saying that if you believe the preaching of Dr. Veith represents the teaching and preaching of Jesus, then you and I do indeed have different faiths. I find it nearly unbelievable that anyone would see the spirit of Christ in the conspiracy theories and attacks of Dr. Veith. I can only think it is due to the fact that they have spent hundreds of hours watching video propaganda rather than reading the Scriptures for themselves. I hope this is not the case with you, Christo.
I have to say that Pastor Jan is not alone here. He may seem to be a sole figure who continues to hold up this standard and answer these objections. But he is not alone.
I personally started watching Veith's videos when a few were loaned to me from someone from my church about two years ago. I started with his video on his conversion to Adventism, Evolution vs. Creationism, etc. That is an excellent video. Which I think is part of the problem – he makes such a compelling argument, with great authority (after all, he’s a PhD in Zoology, right?) that his following videos, especially the Total Onslaught series are just about regarded as highly and accepted readily at face value. Unfortunately, most people at that point to not take it upon themselves to do a thorough investigation and, as the Berean Jews, ‘examine to see it what was said is true.’
Others have done a good job exposing the problems in this video series:
Pastor Bill Cork
Adventist Biblical Research Institute
The problem I feel is that Walter Veith does not represent mainstream Adventism. For example, in his attempt to ‘explain’ the problems with bible translations he quotes from non-SDA sources (Prophecy Club, Gail Riplinger), departs from the official church’s organizational rulings (1918 Conference), and ignores the fact that Ellen White herself used Bible translations based on the very same ‘corrupt’ text bases that Veith himself criticizes.
The E. G. White Counsel on Versions of the Bible
Which Version Can We Trust
Rob
Rob, thanks for the good words and links. I know you've had a personal interest in this issue for some time.
I hope you've stayed warm this winter, with all the snow that must have come your way.
God bless.
Jan
If the example of the Vatican coin leads you to believe that Walter Veith is mixing truth with false interpretation of scripture, particularly in Bible prophecy, then your logic, or maybe, your motives and intensions are suspect. In fact, Walter Veith gives a brilliant expose of Rev 17.4 from a biblical basis, it is after he does this that he goes a step further and shows that this truth is even openly (or maybe arrogantly?) proclaimed by various symbols (such as on coins and statues). A fact that can even be justified by the Bible, for example, the church of Pergamos in Rev 2:12-13 worshipped the Caesars as gods and symbolized this on coins etc.
I fail to see from your quoted example how your initial statement can be true, and therefore, I question your honesty.
Your second paragraph draws the conclusion that Walter Veith does not present a balanced view of scripture, and therefore, is not permitted to speak in many of our churches world wide. Can I take your word on this? Do you have proof of this? Are you sure that this is the reason? I honesty and respectfully whish to know.
For interest sake; I know of a specific example where Walter Veith was not permitted to speak in Germany, and, it was shortly after this that Germany introduced there “almost” Sunday Laws, foreshadowing things yet to come…
You further claim that Jesus never “slandered” public figures, I disagree, not only with the term “slander” (a term which is your opinion – which, in my opinion should be “rebuke”) but also due to what I read in Matthew 23.
I assure you pastor, I examine myself each day to see if I am in the faith, not through dvd’s, but through the Word of God.
You seem to think that a spirit of criticalness and division exist among the “Veith disciples” in the church, yet, as evident and documented on a large scale on your own blog it is quite the opposite. There are more “Veith disciples” writing on your blog witnessing about there honest conversions than your supposed claim, why aren’t there more people claiming the opposite. Have you led more people to God than Walter Veith?
Moreover, there are also numerous occasions where you were confronted with legitimate accusations, such as:
a. The gospel according to you being “Christ Crucified” rather than “Christ Crucified AND risen AND making intercession for us”, an essential to the gospel which even Paul declares that without it our faith is in vain.
b. The sin which we need to overcome from within, which is absolutely true, yet such sin is influenced, initiated and even strengthened from external factors and sources. Now, if one is not aware of such influences, how can one identify or even realize ones own condition. This fact alone makes your arguments against the ministry of Walter Veith null and void since that is exactly what his (total onslaught) ministry does, exposing such influences etc.. At least that is the case for my own life as I used to be an atheist blissfully unaware of the reality of the great controversy between Christ and Satan.
c. You keep on stating that Walter Veith’s message is not Christ and the Gospel centred, and in my (and others) opinion, it is because you are not seeing the “big picture”, the few dvd’s you have seen are but a few chapters in his overall biblical representation of the Gospel. To expect Walter to do so in each and every presentation he does is like expecting to have the Entire Gospel in each and every chapter in the Bible… It is my opinion that his representations are well thought out to target a specific group of people – myself being one of them for which I eternally thank God.
In closing, have you Pastor ever related your concerns to Walter Veith himself? He is a humble and an honest man who would even appreciate you speaking to him regarding all your issues. But I guess you have not, instead you have spent a tremendous amount of time trying to discredit the man. This is not a challenge, rather advice since I have personally witnessed Pastors from other faiths joining our ranks after spending time with the man reconciling such differences that you similarly have. (Not withstanding that this IS a biblical principle and the right thing to do)
Also, it seems to be your habit to counsel people like me who differs in opinion to “examine” ourselves if we are truly in the faith, I wonder, have you prayed for us? Have you prayed for Walter Veith? I assure you, I am praying for you.
Christo,
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I do believe your mistaken about the use of symbols in relation to the Bible, however, we won't resolve that in this forum. I know of no Adventist theologian who takes such a view, nor any pastor personally who teaches this way. I'm sure there are some, but I have not met them or read of them.
As for slander, I stand by my remarks. Many of Dr. Veith's accusations are unproven at best and unnecessary at worst. His attacks on government officials and religious figures have no model in the gospels or NT.
I counsel others like yourself to examine your own spirit regarding Dr. Veith precisely because of your clear misunderstandings on the nature of the gospel and gospel preaching. I consider it a gross misuse of God's word to ever preach without making the cross of Christ the centre of attention, in every discourse. You might want to study the book, Gospel Workers, in this regard. the portions on preaching. This emphasis is clearly lacking in Dr. Veith's Total Onslaught series.
As for what I've seen, it is not as much as yourself, however, I have downloaded the full transcript for the series and looked over it. I saw nothing there to change my mind.
Regarding you critque of my own writing, if you will go to the search box and enter the word resurrection and related words, you'll see my position. The message of Christ and him crucified, an expression of Paul's, not my own, leads directly to a message of new life in Christ through his resurrection.
About Dr. Veith's speaking in our churches, as of last year the Trans-European Division, including the British Union, were denying all service request for Dr. Veith to speak in Adventist Churches, due to his extreme positions and misrepresentation of our faith. I was a part of this Division then and know it to be true. The link you make with his refusal in Germany and later events is the stuff of conspiracy theory, the very thing I'm speaking against.
I've addressed these issues already in my writing, so this will be my last response to you, on this particular topic
God bless, Christo.
Jan,
I read through all your entries on this blog and I concluded that you are just jealous of the impact of Dr Vieth's work through out the world. Its also show how immature you are for doing this on this public arena(internet). I never find any entry from the GC President website neither from any Divisions Presidents and Conferences Leaders warning to refrain from Veith's series. I cant believe how my church(SDA) continue to employ Pastors as such who create division in the church instead of building relationship with their brothers and sister within the church.
I pray to God to work in your heart to be humble to make contact with Dr Veith to sort out your differences.
Cheers!!
Iapesa
Iapesea...Accusing me of jealousy does not change the fact that Dr. Veith's conspiracy theories are not consistent with the Bible's teachings. We take the Scriptures, not elaborate theories on political intrigue, as our guide. Though he may teach truth from time to time, this does not excuse his mixing in speculative theories and Biblical distortions.
No supporter of Dr. Veith's teaching has shown me the same manner of teaching in the example of Christ or his apostles. They lived in a time of great spiritual corruption, yet there are no accusations or gross insinuations made against the Roman authorities, nothing like the continual accusations Dr. Veith makes against the American presidents and other world leaders. His work misrepresents the Spirit of Christ in this way.
His preoccupation with conspiracy theories is not Biblical. That is the simple truth of the matter. It is this work, not mine, that creates division in the church.
What Dr Veith had done on the "Total Onslaught" series has drawn millions to Christ. What you have done on this blog has drawn millions away from Christ.
Perfection is belong to God alone, not you nor Dr Veith. Let God be the Judge. You seem to think that you are the only person on this internet world knows Jesus mind and His teaching and no one else. This type of attitude only comes from Lucifer and his followers.
Matthew 5:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Matthew 7:
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
I know that you will have your own interpretations of the scriptures as I have read from your previous entries. I am reminding what Jesus instructed His followers.
As I said before I am very sad to see God's money been wasted in paying Pastors with evil attitudes towards their fellow brothers.
Iapesa,
So....because I have said the preaching of conspiracy theories is not the work of the gospel minister you accuse me of having the spirit of Lucifer? I have "evil attitudes" because I said Christ did not teach conspiracy theories? Do you really think I hate Dr. Veith because I disagree with some of his teaching? Do I not have a right to weigh a man's teaching according to the Word of God?
Please consider:
1) mainstream Adventism today is Laodicean, so what exactly would one expect a mainstream Adventist pastor or theologian today preach or teach? If mainstream were right, no shaking would be required.
2) Jesus stated: think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword; there is no unity without division, the dross must be removed. Veith cannot create disunited in a church he met already divided. But, how might i ask, have your public accusations and assertions against him brought or promoted unity?
In none of your posts or writings directed at Amazing Discoveries/ Veith has there been presented any convincing evidence that condemns it/ him of the alleged charges of extremism or founding his theology on conspiracy theories or misrepresentation of "our faith" or of anything other than presenting uncomfortable and perhaps "controversial" information.
There is much talk about creating division and intentional biblical distortions, but these arguments can only be regarded as merely base supposition founded upon ideological disagreement not "theological scholarship"; there is much emotion but no evidence. Information has been presented as supporting evidence of error which obviously were not studied as they argue against your suppositions (for ex: EGW and Bible versions). Your accusations are themselves "conspiracy theories" (in the negative).
Taking the arguments presented by you to fruition, all information that is not accepted as truth by mainstream scholars, or mainstream theological consensus would have to be classified as unbiblical... How is this reasonable? Does Satan deceive by consensus? Does God judge by consensus? Who gets to decide which information is mainstream enough to share? Is not the Bible the standard. Have you sat down with Veith and shown him from scripture wherein he has erred?
The Bible declares,
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16:12-13)
Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil. (1 Thessalonians 5:19-22)
All the prophets spoke of things that were going on in their day that would not have been had the people remained faithful, sober and watched unto prayer. Was this unbiblical? Did it not cause division among the people? Were they, the prophets, not seen as extremists, conspiracy theorists and troublers of the people by the mainstream?
If nothing else, the Total Onslaught series does plainly show how completely Satan has infiltrated and assimilated himself into every aspect of our daily lives. And he was able to do this while we "slept". To some this information is a wake-up call, to others an annoyance.
In closing, if Veith has done evil, bear witness against him between you and him first as the bible instructs. "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (James 5:20)". As a pastor, you should know better. What think you the world sees when a pastor is attacking a fellow pastor? straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel...
By their fruits you shall know them...by yours shall they know you. To date i have seen nothing from Veith attacking you, so who then really is exhibiting Christian character?
God bless.
SB....
My original posts on Dr. Veith are nearly two years old, from 2008. In that time I and others have responded to the many comments made. I have addressed your issues / accusations in both my posts and responses. Time does not allow me to repeatedly restate my position. Had you offered something new, I would take that into consideration.
One post in particular, "Walter Veith: Is it a sin to argue against him?" offers a brief explanation of why I feel justified in publicly disagreeing with Dr. Veith. Here is the link: http://www.thejerichoroad.com/home-journal/2008/9/1/walter-veith-is-it-a-sin-to-argue-against-him.html
One final thought. If you carefully read I and II Timothy you will find Paul's teaching and example about the nature of public rebuke, of the pastor's obligation to protect members from false teaching. There is more to consider than Matt. 18. It is not always possible to speak directly with public figures, just has you have felt the need to confront me in a public form without doing so privately, which you could have done by email. My contact details are on this site. I have no objection to what you've done. I am only pointing out the difference, that public figures, even pastors, should expect public objections when others disagree with their positions. I do not consider you sinning against me in this respect, as you seem to think I have against Dr. Veith.
I know you do not agree that Dr. Veith has false teachings. I personally believe his conspiracy theories, especially as he tries to justify them with the book of Revelation, are false teaching. I have given specific examples in previous writings. I have also stated that not all of Dr. Veith's teaching is wrong. Some of what he says I would agree with, though I often find his methods of presentation objectionable and questionable. Also, I have repeatedly said that my objections centre around his "Total Onslaught" series, not his entire work over the years.
Finally, I'm sorry you see my disagreement with Dr. Veith as an attack on him as a person. I know this distinction is not always easy to make. A man and his work are closely intertwined. I often speak strongly, too much so at times, and for that I've also apologized in my writing.
As for Dr. Veith not responding to me, you could not know that unless your closely associated with him. Otherwise, it would only be an assumption on your part. In fact, he has not. I've never assumed he has even known of my objections. I do assume he has heard them before from others, from church leaders on a personal level, since he is denied official service request to speak in Adventist churches on a Division level. (Something that was true early last year. I don't know if any changes have been made in the Trans-European Division's position). This was also true on the British Union Conference level. Dr. Veith is familiar with objections to his work, the same ones I have made. The fact that he has not responded to me is not necessarily a matter of Christian character. He, like myself, has many other obligations of ministry. His silence could have many reasons. I have no evidence he is even aware of my writing. This is a small blog in a very, very large pond. Though a search on his name does bring me up to the front page or two of Google. You yourself may have found me this way.
One other thing comes to mind, making this comment much longer than I intended. I do accept that it is fair to consider the objections of scholars more expert in their field when Dr. Veith ventures into that area, as he does, for example, on Bible translations. He takes a position on the King James Version of the Bible that is contrary to his church's public and historical position. Scholars in that field have duly responded. I, nor Dr. Veith, are experts in Textual Criticism. We both can read in those areas. I believe Dr. Veith is mistaken about the superiority of the KJV over some modern translations, such as NASB, the ESV, or the RSV. I do not accept that the NIV is the work of conspiracies of evil. It has mistakes; I do not believe it is the best translation available. However, that is a far cry from saying it is the work of the devil. Imperfection in any area of life is the result of sin in the world, yet to say ignorant, will-meaning mistakes are the direct work of Satan is morally and theologically wrong. I repent of my ignorance as I do of my sins, but they are not the same.
Thanks for taking the time to carefully consider these things.
I too am sorry that my personal testimony has been viewed as character assassination against Dr. Veith. That was not my intention, and I apologize for the misunderstanding. Perhaps the strength of my words caused confusion about the general concerns I was trying to express, and perhaps I never made the distinction clear enough that my concerns with some of the teachings being promulgated were from a strictly theological standpoint, and NOT a personal one.
However, my concerns are the same today, and I believe I can safely say they are the same concerns shared by Pastor McKenzie, and by our SDA Church as a whole.
After writing to the Biblical Research Institute of our SDA Church, the associate director, Gerhard Pfandl shared this:
"You are quite right to be wary of all the conspiracy theories out there. If you go to Wikipedia and type in New World Order you will find a long article describing the background of the term and its theological and political ramifications. As a church we do not subscribe to the popular idea of a New World Order or one-world government. The only New World Order we teach is the one Jesus will establish at his Second Coming.
"As Seventh-day Adventists we should study Revelation 13 and the last 10 chapters of The Great Controversy where the future is outlined and not run after conspiracy theories."
Thanks for sharing that Odessa.
Rob
Jan
I ask you to re-read what I had said before as stated below and try to understand.
"Perfection is belong to God alone, not you nor Dr Veith. Let God be the Judge. You seem to think that you are the only person on this internet world knows Jesus mind and His teaching and no one else. This type of attitude only comes from Lucifer and his followers."
Self righteous, Self Perfection, Self knowledgeable and arrogant are the attitudes originate from Lucifer. From me as a lesser intellectual mind, these are the message I get from most of your entries. Jan is right and Walter is wrong. Jan knows his Bible and Walter does not. Jan knows 100% of Jesus Gospel and Walter knows 50%. Jan promote unity and Walter causes division. These what I class them evil attitudes.
"So....because I have said the preaching of conspiracy theories is not the work of the gospel minister you accuse me of having the spirit of Lucifer? I have "evil attitudes" because I said Christ did not teach conspiracy theories? Do you really think I hate Dr. Veith because I disagree with some of his teaching? Do I not have a right to weigh a man's teaching according to the Word of God?"
With your last question, you have all the right to weigh a man's teaching in accordance to the Bible but not on this platform(internet). Your actions of setting up this blogs to criticise Dr Veith's presentations is totally unchristian like, not scripture base and not according to the SDA Church policy of dealing with differences in the Church.
Its unbelievable that you as a Pastor of the SDA church do not aware of these side-effects you have cause from the actions you have done on the net.
Iapesa, If you will look in my archives you will see I have said very little regarding this subject when compared with other topics. My posting on Dr. Veith came out the division his work was causing in some of our local churches in England, where I pastored at the time of the first post in 2008. This was more than two years after I began writing this blog. You can easily see that from the dates and archives. This will end my conversation with you on this topic, as I've repeatedly addressed your questions / comments in other places. Feel free to browse other topics.
Odessa, Thank you for that affirming quote from the BRI. Very well said. Right to the point. Hope your well.
Jan
Always good to hear from you, Rob, however briefly :)
Thanks Pastor Jan,
Just so you know, I always appreciate and am blessed by your posts. They are always thought provoking and usually heart rending as well. Keep up the good work.
Rob
As I always see from your entries that you always divert to other postings if our(Veith's supporters) points hit you right. Instead of admitting to your mistakes and apologise.
Pride (character of Lucifer) always comes before a fall.
PS: I wont bother wasting my time to read your other postings as I already know the type of author you are. I dont think I will get anything good from you to lead me to the foot of Jesus' cross.
Hi Pastor Jan
Are you and the SDA church really suggesting that we should jus ignore whats going on around us and continue to live like it isnt happening? as Christians, conspiracys abt things like the introduction of the national Sunday law and other things like that do affect us... and as far as i know the SDA church has always looked at things going on around them to prove to pple that things like the national sunday law are slowly going to happen at some point....plus, u say Christ doesnt teach anything that makes anyone paranoid... or afraid... yeah, as believers we are not afraid coz of the faith we have in Him...but trust me, the things listed in Matthew 24, earthquakes, wars etc....do make any one with a shaking faith scared...i say that coz they scare me a lot sumtyms...
and may i jus add, reading your blog has jus made me not only want to separate myself more from the SDA church..but it has confirmed to me that, if we trust in men and not on the Bible alone, we will blindly follow our pastors n fail to see the very signs we r to look out for in the last days... from now on i will like to remain 'denomination-less' and study my Bible more.
Finally, i say this with love, i hope u start opening your eyes more to the world around u...as Walter Veith does... these things are happening...but instead of makin us paranoid and afraid, they should strengthen our faith in Christ and make us long more for a much better world that Christ is bringing. - a perfect world that is not made up of lies and deception.
be blessed!
Hi YoungLady,
Our SDA Church bases its knowledge of what is taking place around us in Biblical prophecy, and it encourages its members to do the same. The Sunday Law is not a conspiracy theory, it is based on Biblical prophecy.
New World Order conspiracy theories distract Christians from the truth of the Bible, and the "NWO" that theorists predict includes many other theories as well, while vastly ignoring and/or misapplying prophecy itself. And whether there is truth to some of the theories or not, it doesn't matter. For the Christian, the Bible is the final authority on what was and what is to come.
I hope this helps.
Odessa
YoungLady
Just to advise you not to be bother much of what Jan, Rob and Odessa being saying here. Do what you do as you said, read and study your bible and pray. The Holy Spirit will guide you to all truth.
These people I mention their names above I personally class them as Christian theorists. They totally lack the practical christian life. By their fruit you will know them. Look to Jesus He is the author and the finisher of our faith.
God bless you
I was shocked to see someone who states he is an SDA minister being so critical, and with precious little evidence, of another SDA minister. Then I saw one of your recommended blogs "Gary Walter". I had a year and a half of experience in his last church (attendance went form about 150 to 30 or less by the time he was fired). I hope for your congregation's sake you are not from the same mold. I have been an Adventist for more than 50 years and it is rare these days to hear a good sermon on Bible Prophecy or Endtime Events of the Second Coming! When I had to have my "Adventist Satelite" realigned I discovered Amazing Discoveries. Breath of fresh air!!! I believe we are living in the end of the endtimes and Jesus is soon to return. Somehow in my current church and several others I have attended nobody seems to know that. Maybe you should set aside your bias about Dr. Veith and have an open minded look at what he presents.
to young lady.i have read your replies,and next you will have us all doing worldly things on the sabbath.those who you say are ministers are just that.they do seem to know what prophecy stands for.and yes it is different to veith but he is wrong .by a long way.do you not believe also that rev 13:11 when it says .and i beheld another beast coming up out of the earth;and he had two horns like a lamb,and he spake as a dragon.this is the usa.or do you diagree.and so we come to rev 17:12 reveals that this power of the eight king has "received no kingdom as yet;but receives power as kings one hour[15 days]with the beast.this eight kingdom that can be said to have derived from the seven or is of the seventh,involves the whole world.when motivated by the beast power.the u.s.a.leads the world to bestow honour on a church in apostasy.related in a different way,the new world order that is close at hand has not yet been fully established.but when it does inherit this all-embracing power,persecution of Gods elect will begin in earnest.in the light of circumstances now prevailing in the world it is not so strange to visualise the truth made so obvious in scripture and in political dialogue.talk of a new world-order has been in existence for a number of years.i am not trying to belittle you but i cannot see any minister except veith being out of order.this will happen,whether you believe it or not.may God be with you.brian.cwmbran south wales.uk
Here is a copy of the response I received about Dr. Veith when I contacted the conference in which he serves.
"Hi Jasmine
By answer on your question regarding Dr Walter Veith I am also copying the Cape Conference where Dr Walter Veith is a pastor. As far as I know Dr Veith's teachings is well circulated and well accepted by SDA and non-SDA persons. I have not heard any reports of his teachings being devisive or conflicting with that of SDA fundamental teachings.
I am sure that should any further comments be neccessary the Cape Conference leadership supply you with such insight.
Sincerely
Eddie Baron"
Jan, I would say you have the patience of a saint but someone might call me a Jesuit spy. All can say is thank you for your good example in standing up for sane thinking. I am a fourth generation SDA and I am totally embarrassed by the conspiracy theory of Walter Veith and Bill Hughes.
Keep the faith. Jesus is love. I pray that Walter Veith and Bill Hughes are touched by the Holy Spirit.