One post in particular, "Walter Veith: Is it a sin to argue against him?" offers a brief explanation of why I feel justified in publicly disagreeing with Dr. Veith. Here is the link: http://www.thejerichoroad.com/home-journal/2008/9/1/walter-veith-is-it-a-sin-to-argue-against-him.html

One final thought. If you carefully read I and II Timothy you will find Paul's teaching and example about the nature of public rebuke, of the pastor's obligation to protect members from false teaching. There is more to consider than Matt. 18. It is not always possible to speak directly with public figures, just has you have felt the need to confront me in a public form without doing so privately, which you could have done by email. My contact details are on this site. I have no objection to what you've done. I am only pointing out the difference, that public figures, even pastors, should expect public objections when others disagree with their positions. I do not consider you sinning against me in this respect, as you seem to think I have against Dr. Veith.

I know you do not agree that Dr. Veith has false teachings. I personally believe his conspiracy theories, especially as he tries to justify them with the book of Revelation, are false teaching. I have given specific examples in previous writings. I have also stated that not all of Dr. Veith's teaching is wrong. Some of what he says I would agree with, though I often find his methods of presentation objectionable and questionable. Also, I have repeatedly said that my objections centre around his "Total Onslaught" series, not his entire work over the years.

Finally, I'm sorry you see my disagreement with Dr. Veith as an attack on him as a person. I know this distinction is not always easy to make. A man and his work are closely intertwined. I often speak strongly, too much so at times, and for that I've also apologized in my writing.

As for Dr. Veith not responding to me, you could not know that unless your closely associated with him. Otherwise, it would only be an assumption on your part. In fact, he has not. I've never assumed he has even known of my objections. I do assume he has heard them before from others, from church leaders on a personal level, since he is denied official service request to speak in Adventist churches on a Division level. (Something that was true early last year. I don't know if any changes have been made in the Trans-European Division's position). This was also true on the British Union Conference level. Dr. Veith is familiar with objections to his work, the same ones I have made. The fact that he has not responded to me is not necessarily a matter of Christian character. He, like myself, has many other obligations of ministry. His silence could have many reasons. I have no evidence he is even aware of my writing. This is a small blog in a very, very large pond. Though a search on his name does bring me up to the front page or two of Google. You yourself may have found me this way.

One other thing comes to mind, making this comment much longer than I intended. I do accept that it is fair to consider the objections of scholars more expert in their field when Dr. Veith ventures into that area, as he does, for example, on Bible translations. He takes a position on the King James Version of the Bible that is contrary to his church's public and historical position. Scholars in that field have duly responded. I, nor Dr. Veith, are experts in Textual Criticism. We both can read in those areas. I believe Dr. Veith is mistaken about the superiority of the KJV over some modern translations, such as NASB, the ESV, or the RSV. I do not accept that the NIV is the work of conspiracies of evil. It has mistakes; I do not believe it is the best translation available. However, that is a far cry from saying it is the work of the devil. Imperfection in any area of life is the result of sin in the world, yet to say ignorant, will-meaning mistakes are the direct work of Satan is morally and theologically wrong. I repent of my ignorance as I do of my sins, but they are not the same.

Thanks for taking the time to carefully consider these things.

2) Jesus stated: think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword; there is no unity without division, the dross must be removed. Veith cannot create disunited in a church he met already divided. But, how might i ask, have your public accusations and assertions against him brought or promoted unity?

In none of your posts or writings directed at Amazing Discoveries/ Veith has there been presented any convincing evidence that condemns it/ him of the alleged charges of extremism or founding his theology on conspiracy theories or misrepresentation of "our faith" or of anything other than presenting uncomfortable and perhaps "controversial" information.

There is much talk about creating division and intentional biblical distortions, but these arguments can only be regarded as merely base supposition founded upon ideological disagreement not "theological scholarship"; there is much emotion but no evidence. Information has been presented as supporting evidence of error which obviously were not studied as they argue against your suppositions (for ex: EGW and Bible versions). Your accusations are themselves "conspiracy theories" (in the negative).

Taking the arguments presented by you to fruition, all information that is not accepted as truth by mainstream scholars, or mainstream theological consensus would have to be classified as unbiblical... How is this reasonable? Does Satan deceive by consensus? Does God judge by consensus? Who gets to decide which information is mainstream enough to share? Is not the Bible the standard. Have you sat down with Veith and shown him from scripture wherein he has erred?

The Bible declares,
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16:12-13)

Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil. (1 Thessalonians 5:19-22)

All the prophets spoke of things that were going on in their day that would not have been had the people remained faithful, sober and watched unto prayer. Was this unbiblical? Did it not cause division among the people? Were they, the prophets, not seen as extremists, conspiracy theorists and troublers of the people by the mainstream?

If nothing else, the Total Onslaught series does plainly show how completely Satan has infiltrated and assimilated himself into every aspect of our daily lives. And he was able to do this while we "slept". To some this information is a wake-up call, to others an annoyance.

In closing, if Veith has done evil, bear witness against him between you and him first as the bible instructs. "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (James 5:20)". As a pastor, you should know better. What think you the world sees when a pastor is attacking a fellow pastor? straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel...

By their fruits you shall know them...by yours shall they know you. To date i have seen nothing from Veith attacking you, so who then really is exhibiting Christian character?

God bless.

Your right about the benefits of technology for fact checking. What difference Googling makes, among other search methods and engines, though I've had problems getting to the actual reference before I could follow it up. It can take quite a long time to just get their "bibliography" off the slides or other media, that is, if they have documented their sources in a usable way, providing the full information. If your only watching a DVD it is even harder.

The good thing about technology is that it's far easier to check a speaker's facts and either dismiss them or learn from them. In the "old days" you needed access (and motivation!) to a good library.

So....because I have said the preaching of conspiracy theories is not the work of the gospel minister you accuse me of having the spirit of Lucifer? I have "evil attitudes" because I said Christ did not teach conspiracy theories? Do you really think I hate Dr. Veith because I disagree with some of his teaching? Do I not have a right to weigh a man's teaching according to the Word of God?

Perfection is belong to God alone, not you nor Dr Veith. Let God be the Judge. You seem to think that you are the only person on this internet world knows Jesus mind and His teaching and no one else. This type of attitude only comes from Lucifer and his followers.

Matthew 5:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

Matthew 7:
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

I know that you will have your own interpretations of the scriptures as I have read from your previous entries. I am reminding what Jesus instructed His followers.

As I said before I am very sad to see God's money been wasted in paying Pastors with evil attitudes towards their fellow brothers.

No supporter of Dr. Veith's teaching has shown me the same manner of teaching in the example of Christ or his apostles. They lived in a time of great spiritual corruption, yet there are no accusations or gross insinuations made against the Roman authorities, nothing like the continual accusations Dr. Veith makes against the American presidents and other world leaders. His work misrepresents the Spirit of Christ in this way.

His preoccupation with conspiracy theories is not Biblical. That is the simple truth of the matter. It is this work, not mine, that creates division in the church.

I read through all your entries on this blog and I concluded that you are just jealous of the impact of Dr Vieth's work through out the world. Its also show how immature you are for doing this on this public arena(internet). I never find any entry from the GC President website neither from any Divisions Presidents and Conferences Leaders warning to refrain from Veith's series. I cant believe how my church(SDA) continue to employ Pastors as such who create division in the church instead of building relationship with their brothers and sister within the church.

I pray to God to work in your heart to be humble to make contact with Dr Veith to sort out your differences.

Cheers!!

Iapesa

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I do believe your mistaken about the use of symbols in relation to the Bible, however, we won't resolve that in this forum. I know of no Adventist theologian who takes such a view, nor any pastor personally who teaches this way. I'm sure there are some, but I have not met them or read of them.

As for slander, I stand by my remarks. Many of Dr. Veith's accusations are unproven at best and unnecessary at worst. His attacks on government officials and religious figures have no model in the gospels or NT.

I counsel others like yourself to examine your own spirit regarding Dr. Veith precisely because of your clear misunderstandings on the nature of the gospel and gospel preaching. I consider it a gross misuse of God's word to ever preach without making the cross of Christ the centre of attention, in every discourse. You might want to study the book, Gospel Workers, in this regard. the portions on preaching. This emphasis is clearly lacking in Dr. Veith's Total Onslaught series.

As for what I've seen, it is not as much as yourself, however, I have downloaded the full transcript for the series and looked over it. I saw nothing there to change my mind.

Regarding you critque of my own writing, if you will go to the search box and enter the word resurrection and related words, you'll see my position. The message of Christ and him crucified, an expression of Paul's, not my own, leads directly to a message of new life in Christ through his resurrection.

About Dr. Veith's speaking in our churches, as of last year the Trans-European Division, including the British Union, were denying all service request for Dr. Veith to speak in Adventist Churches, due to his extreme positions and misrepresentation of our faith. I was a part of this Division then and know it to be true. The link you make with his refusal in Germany and later events is the stuff of conspiracy theory, the very thing I'm speaking against.

I've addressed these issues already in my writing, so this will be my last response to you, on this particular topic

God bless, Christo.

If the example of the Vatican coin leads you to believe that Walter Veith is mixing truth with false interpretation of scripture, particularly in Bible prophecy, then your logic, or maybe, your motives and intensions are suspect. In fact, Walter Veith gives a brilliant expose of Rev 17.4 from a biblical basis, it is after he does this that he goes a step further and shows that this truth is even openly (or maybe arrogantly?) proclaimed by various symbols (such as on coins and statues). A fact that can even be justified by the Bible, for example, the church of Pergamos in Rev 2:12-13 worshipped the Caesars as gods and symbolized this on coins etc.

I fail to see from your quoted example how your initial statement can be true, and therefore, I question your honesty.

Your second paragraph draws the conclusion that Walter Veith does not present a balanced view of scripture, and therefore, is not permitted to speak in many of our churches world wide. Can I take your word on this? Do you have proof of this? Are you sure that this is the reason? I honesty and respectfully whish to know.

For interest sake; I know of a specific example where Walter Veith was not permitted to speak in Germany, and, it was shortly after this that Germany introduced there “almost” Sunday Laws, foreshadowing things yet to come…

You further claim that Jesus never “slandered” public figures, I disagree, not only with the term “slander” (a term which is your opinion – which, in my opinion should be “rebuke”) but also due to what I read in Matthew 23.

I assure you pastor, I examine myself each day to see if I am in the faith, not through dvd’s, but through the Word of God.

You seem to think that a spirit of criticalness and division exist among the “Veith disciples” in the church, yet, as evident and documented on a large scale on your own blog it is quite the opposite. There are more “Veith disciples” writing on your blog witnessing about there honest conversions than your supposed claim, why aren’t there more people claiming the opposite. Have you led more people to God than Walter Veith?

Moreover, there are also numerous occasions where you were confronted with legitimate accusations, such as:

a. The gospel according to you being “Christ Crucified” rather than “Christ Crucified AND risen AND making intercession for us”, an essential to the gospel which even Paul declares that without it our faith is in vain.

b. The sin which we need to overcome from within, which is absolutely true, yet such sin is influenced, initiated and even strengthened from external factors and sources. Now, if one is not aware of such influences, how can one identify or even realize ones own condition. This fact alone makes your arguments against the ministry of Walter Veith null and void since that is exactly what his (total onslaught) ministry does, exposing such influences etc.. At least that is the case for my own life as I used to be an atheist blissfully unaware of the reality of the great controversy between Christ and Satan.

c. You keep on stating that Walter Veith’s message is not Christ and the Gospel centred, and in my (and others) opinion, it is because you are not seeing the “big picture”, the few dvd’s you have seen are but a few chapters in his overall biblical representation of the Gospel. To expect Walter to do so in each and every presentation he does is like expecting to have the Entire Gospel in each and every chapter in the Bible… It is my opinion that his representations are well thought out to target a specific group of people – myself being one of them for which I eternally thank God.

In closing, have you Pastor ever related your concerns to Walter Veith himself? He is a humble and an honest man who would even appreciate you speaking to him regarding all your issues. But I guess you have not, instead you have spent a tremendous amount of time trying to discredit the man. This is not a challenge, rather advice since I have personally witnessed Pastors from other faiths joining our ranks after spending time with the man reconciling such differences that you similarly have. (Not withstanding that this IS a biblical principle and the right thing to do)

Also, it seems to be your habit to counsel people like me who differs in opinion to “examine” ourselves if we are truly in the faith, I wonder, have you prayed for us? Have you prayed for Walter Veith? I assure you, I am praying for you.

I hope you've stayed warm this winter, with all the snow that must have come your way.

God bless.

I personally started watching Veith's videos when a few were loaned to me from someone from my church about two years ago. I started with his video on his conversion to Adventism, Evolution vs. Creationism, etc. That is an excellent video. Which I think is part of the problem – he makes such a compelling argument, with great authority (after all, he’s a PhD in Zoology, right?) that his following videos, especially the Total Onslaught series are just about regarded as highly and accepted readily at face value. Unfortunately, most people at that point to not take it upon themselves to do a thorough investigation and, as the Berean Jews, ‘examine to see it what was said is true.’

Others have done a good job exposing the problems in this video series:

Pastor Bill Cork

Adventist Biblical Research Institute

The problem I feel is that Walter Veith does not represent mainstream Adventism. For example, in his attempt to ‘explain’ the problems with bible translations he quotes from non-SDA sources (Prophecy Club, Gail Riplinger), departs from the official church’s organizational rulings (1918 Conference), and ignores the fact that Ellen White herself used Bible translations based on the very same ‘corrupt’ text bases that Veith himself criticizes.

The E. G. White Counsel on Versions of the Bible

Which Version Can We Trust

Rob

But, as you know, my primary objections with Dr. Veith has to do with the way he offers political conspiracy theories as being the fulfillment of prophecy. Such teaching, along with his mistaken views on Bible translations, are openly contrary to Seventh-day Adventist understandings of the Bible. Dr. Veith does not represent a balanced view of Scripture. It is for this very reason he is not permitted to speak in so many of our churches world-wide.

Dr. Veith does not represent the Seventh-day Adventist understanding of Bible Prophecy, certainly not in the spirit of the gospel, not with his unproven constructions of speculative conspiracy theories. His preoccupation political figures is not the focus of Scripture. His ministry is largely one of attacking Catholics rather than proclaiming the gospel of Christ. He continually and repeatedly makes unproven accustations against those who are not present to defend themselves. Much of what he says amounts to slandering the character of public figures. You'll find nothing like this preaching in the life of Jesus or the apostles. His work unnecessarily alienates those whom we should be trying to win to the love of Christ. I consider the spirit of his work to be that of false teaching, though he may preach truth from time to time. As a pastor, I'm instructed by Scripture to warn believers of false teaching. That is what I've tried to do.

Christo, I'm sorry you take this warning as a personal attack on your faith, but perhaps you need to also examine yourself, to see if indeed, the faith you've accepted is what you imagine it to be. If Dr. Veith represents your current faith and practice then I would counsel you to put down the DVD's and pick up the Scriptures. The Bible neither teaches or supports conspiracy theories. Those who say it does are distorting the Scripture for personal advantage.

Such an attack on the word of God will, as you say, be seen by it's fruit. The fruit of division and a critical spirit have entered any church I've known that had Veith disciples in it. Those converted to his ministry often come in with the same spirit of attack and self-righteousness so prevalent in the videos. They consider themselves holier than other members, more enlightened, more informed about the supposed conspiracies they've learned from Dr. Veith.

I'll close by saying that if you believe the preaching of Dr. Veith represents the teaching and preaching of Jesus, then you and I do indeed have different faiths. I find it nearly unbelievable that anyone would see the spirit of Christ in the conspiracy theories and attacks of Dr. Veith. I can only think it is due to the fact that they have spent hundreds of hours watching video propaganda rather than reading the Scriptures for themselves. I hope this is not the case with you, Christo.

Reading through this blog and all the others regarding Walter Veith you have made the following statement in your previous post and similar comments in others: "he [Walter Veith] does mix truth with false interpretations of Scripture, particularly Bible prophecy" - whould you please reference this statement of yours? It seems that you have watched only a limited amount of his dvd's, and since this is a serious allegation you make would you please elaborate?

Furthermore, in the spirit of honesty and truth i need to state the following:

Through watching the (complete) Total Onslaught DVD Seminar about 4 years ago - Jesus Christ saved me from a life of godlessness pleasure and pride. I am now a baptized member of the SDA Church, the youth leader in our church and i currenly run a dvd-evangelistic-ministry, the "seeds" that were sown by watching the Total Onslaught DVD's produced such "fruits" in my life. Through your general tone it seems that you are falsely accusing my good conversion in Christ? Be not deceived Pastor, evil communications corrupts good manners.

As for the lectionary idea, I prefer the struggle of heart and spirit, whether I like it or not. Though I know Bonhoeffer used a lectionary, not only for preaching, but for personal devotions. It didn't seem to hurt him any.

I do repeat myself too often. A little more order wouldn't go amiss.

Some imagine I lean to the mystical side of things, perhaps because of my theology of paradox in the cross of Christ. For me though, it seems more like mystery than mystical. Surprising perhaps, since my favorite branch of theology is systematics. Just one more paradox to consider :)